Imagine transforming the breastfeeding journey of millions of mothers worldwide - Eva Nagy-Gannan is on a mission to do exactly that. With a game-changing approach to breast pump technology, Eva shares her personal experience with breasts pumps that use sucking technology and how this ignited her mission to develop a breast pump that mirrors the natural action of a suckling baby. We discuss her revolutionary invention, the Calla wearable manual pump and its potential to empower mothers, offering them control, comfort, and a better pumping experience.
Eva and I also discuss some of the big takeaways and themes she's learned by interviewing many experts and moms on her Letdown Podcast. These include:
You can show your support for bringing this new pumping technology to market by backing the Call wearable manual pump on Kickstarter! It's a simple action that could have a profound impact on the breastfeeding experience of new moms for generations to come.
Want more education and support around breastfeeding? Check out our signature course & community, Empowered Breastfeeding Bootcamp, and sign up for a free preview!
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Podcast artwork by Staci Oswald aka my favorite designer EVER + mom of 2 bundles of boy energy
Hello and welcome to Spilling the Milk, the podcast, where we are serious about making things better for breastfeeding moms and babies, but we also don't take ourselves too seriously. And a happy National Breastfeeding Month to all. Of course, around here we are always raising awareness around breastfeeding and how to better support moms, but it's also pretty cool that this is a nationally celebrated issue this month. If you enjoy this podcast, know that it is a production of Empowered Bumps and Boobs, and you are welcome to head over to EmpoweredBumpsandBoopscom for lots more resources on all things breastfeeding. Of course, our signature program, empowered Breastfeeding Boot Camp, is open for enrollment and if you head to the website, you can find lots more information on that. We would love to have you join us. It's an online space where you can not only learn about breastfeeding but connect with other moms who are in it with you and you can ask your questions and you can get some reassurance that you're doing things okay. And, as you'll hear in today's conversation, one of the best predictors of breastfeeding success is if moms have a support community and have that support around them, especially when they're first getting started. I am really excited for today's conversation. It is with Eva Nagyannan, I think I'm saying her name right. She is from Ireland and she is working on something so exciting. I love disruptors. I love people who look at the status quo and say, hmm, not good enough. And so that's what Eva has done. She has looked at the state of breast pumps, which literally suck. They use sucking technology, which is not how babies get milk out of breasts. Babies suckle, they don't suck. And the industry has just used basically the same technology, though there have been advancements with wearable pumps and electric pumps, but at the core, the technology really hasn't changed. And she saw this and said not good enough. Based on her own experience, and then based on speaking with lots and lots of experts in the field of lactation, as well as moms who have used pumps and have breastfed and she's just very passionate about this issue and has thus far been able to develop a new type of breast pump using grant money, and at this point, they are ready to manufacture and bring this to market, and so, to fund that, they're going the way of Kickstarter, a Kickstarter campaign, which I love because this needs to be a grassroots movement. Why would the big pumping companies want to put themselves out of business? That's how disruption works, they're not going to do it. They want you to keep buying the pumps that they have to offer you. But going directly to consumers, to the moms whose lives would be changed with a better breast pump solution, I think that's the right way to go, and so I'm definitely going to be heading over to the Kickstarter campaign. After recording this episode, I'm going to purchase one of the I think one of the gift sets. So there's different levels that you can contribute. If you've never done a Kickstarter campaign. The way it works is you pledge money to back this project and when a certain date passes in this case, october 10th 2023, if the Kickstarter campaign has met its goal monetary goal, enough people have pledged, then your card will be charged and you actually are contributing the money. If they don't meet the goal, then you aren't charged. So you would only end up investing in something that enough other people also invested in, which is kind of a good safety net and one of the keys to the success of Kickstarter itself as a platform. So, without further ado, I want you to have a chance to hear from Ava directly. She's going to explain the technology, explain some you know some of the origin, of where it came from the benefits of this type of pump compared to our traditional sucking pumps, and I think you're going to love her as much as I did. Take a listen. I'm a little bit overwhelmed and blown away because it seems like it's going to be a lot of fun. It seems like what you're working on could be really life changing and sort of industry changing. So I think, without further ado, if you could just start with who you are, a little about your background and then the specific project you're working on, just to give us some background.Eva:
Yeah, yeah, so my name is Ava Nadyganan. I am the founder of Kala. Kala is, as you say, groundbreaking technology to mimic the suckling action of the tongue of the infant. My background is originally in business, so I have a master's degree in economics and I worked in this field, especially with large EU funds, for the majority of my career. And then we started a family. I became pregnant and I started my breastfeeding journey with my first son and I loved it. So I was through and through a breastfeeding obsessed with breastfeeding. I loved doing it. Of course, I faced a lot of challenges, as everybody else, I suppose, who is breastfeeding but my biggest issue was with breast pumps. They never really worked for me and I remember being somebody who didn't have previous experience with breastfeeding or with pumps. I was constantly thinking of like, oh, do I actually have max supply? Is my baby getting enough milk? Because I don't see anything in the bottle. And I tried with so many brands and inserts and different flange sizes, and all I got was pain and no results for it either. So it was really, really frustrating. And then one day I remember somebody in our Facebook group who was a group of supporting mothers, supporting each other in breastfeeding. Somebody posted this ultrasound video of an infant suckling and you know that's kind of undulating movement that the tongue is doing and it was just like, oh my God, I know one thing for sure this is not what my breast pump is doing, and that was. I think that was the pivotal moment where it just stuck in my mind and I started to read up about it more and more and this kind of interest turned into something else, because my husband is in medical devices, so he was looking from the side, going, yeah, they really don't do that, do they Like? No matter what breast pump we looked at, they don't seem to be. Literally just a question is does the breast pump have a tongue? You could easily say no, you know it's so easy to answer that question. I know there is a lot of talk about how they mimic the sacrilegia pattern and anything, what they can do with vacuum. They try to do, but at the end of the day, there is no tongue. There is no, not that fundamental physical interaction with the breast that has been the trigger for our breast for millions of years. You know that this, this fundamental, key thing, is missing. And yeah, so we got a small funding to kind of do a proof of principle to see whether it's at all possible to translate this idea or knowledge into a device. And we got positive results from that initial test. So the University of Go away was kind enough and interested enough to understand that, yeah, this is something fundamentally important. So we received a two year funding from them, where we worked with engineers, scientists, medical professionals to pin down exactly the actions of the suckling tongue and translate it into technology.Emily:
Wow, that is so cool, I guess, being sort of on the other side of all that development, what surprised you, or maybe what big lessons did you learn just from going through the whole process of creating a new product?Eva:
Oh, there are so many, so many, but I suppose the biggest, the hardest part let's say this this this way that, like what the tongue does, is extremely complex. The tongue itself is such a agile organ it can twist internally. We just think about it how we are able to speak and turn our tongues in such complex ways. The same way with suckling, there are so many parts to the tongue that does absolutely different things at the same time to create this complex motion of the suckling. So pinning down those functions was one part, but trying to combine those functions. We identified five key functions. I might mention it here the latch, compression, sequence, vacuum and the positioning. These are the five key elements of it. They need to work in perfect harmony, to emphasize each other and that was really hard, that was really hard to make combine them in a way that they actually enhance and create the wanted effect as opposed to just bypass each other. So that was I suppose that was the hardest. There are like hundreds of different trial and errors and and the modeling that need to be right. This is not the perfect. We have to go back and do it again. So it's a much bigger fundamental thing than by the look of it. Just look at it and you see an undulating wave-like motion. That's just the surface, and we were very determined that we're not just going to create something that looks like suckling. It's not like we don't want to just kind of take the box of like yeah, this is this. From the far, it does look like what the infinite is doing. We were very keen on defining exactly what is the functionality of these specific parts to make it actually work like suckling, not just look like it.Emily:
So it sounds like you are sort of affirming how miraculous the human body is to start with, because you were trying to mimic it and it wasn't so easy.Eva:
Absolutely. We were absolutely amazed by the sophistication of it. We went through about 120 research papers to start with, and ultrasound images, of course, ultrasound videos and a lot of interviews with lactation consultants, modders, so there is a great deal of expertise and experience poured into this. But, yeah, just the amazement of how the body and the interaction between the infant's tongue and the mother's breast, this kind of super sophisticated, delicate interaction connectivity, is amazing. And the more we went into it, of course, the more we were frustrated by how much breast pumps are able currently able to ignore all that, just because they work to some extent.Emily:
So there is no real alternatives out there that could highlight the shortcoming of the current devices Right, we just take it for granted that that's the only option and so many women rely on pumps. If you're going to be away from your baby, if you're going to work away from your baby and it's really important for you to keep feeding breast milk, you have to use a pump, or you could express manually, but that's not quite as efficient. I guess could you speak to, because I think what you're developing right now is a form of a manual pump, so maybe explain how that aspect works.Eva:
Yeah. So we decided for a manual pump, to produce a manual pump the technology itself and it's something that fits inside the bra. So it's going to have this half dome or teardrop shape that fits inside the bra and you can squeeze it from the sides, outside your clothes. You don't have to sort of go under your clothes to to make it work, you just kind of squeeze through your clothes from the sides. So if you kind of squeeze smaller ones, that's like the stimulation that that may make the stimulation of the infant tongue, and then if you squeeze bigger ones, that's when the milk expression starts. So it's it. We like the idea of manual pump because it has a direct feedback between your hand and what's happening, you know. So you are more in control of how deep, how fast you would want to do it. So we are we're always kind of happy with that idea. So it's super simple and after you finish you take it out and pour out the milk from the top.Emily:
Yeah, and I feel like when you're breastfeeding you're always sort of like grabbing your bra, like you know, if you have a clogged Duck, you're always sort of like working out over your clothes. So I can picture like it's not that different to just be over the clothes, like Pumping, and you could do it in the car. You could do it, you know, if you had an office, you could just do it in an office, like I love that. Because when I saw all the wearable pumps come to market, sort of after I was done breastfeeding, I thought, oh, what a game changer To be able to be pumping while you're still wearing your clothes. So it sounds like your technology still takes advantage of that, say, I'm here, same here.Eva:
I missed the boat. I missed the boat of the variable response as well, but I absolutely loved it. I absolutely love the idea and I felt like it's a game changer. But at the same time, there is no manual pumps that are wearable and Mario pumps manual pumps are so important to have. So, yeah, I think we were bringing for me. I felt like having a wearable breast pump is now standard. You know, like that, that's the, that's the starting point you wouldn't you don't want to go back To a previous model than then the wearables. So yeah, we're keen to to make sure that our technology sits in a wearable model.Emily:
And you. When you first started speaking, you mentioned that you encountered some challenges with your own breastfeeding journey, so I was just curious what came up for you there. I Think.Eva:
For me, with the breastfeeding itself, the biggest was the doubt of am I doing it right? Is to be feeding enough? Although I felt like he was constantly at breastfeeding, he was not, but still is he gaining enough? So I suppose I Didn't encounter many. It's like I didn't had a Engorged breasts or just very basic ones. If I could feel it, I could put the baby on it and he took care of it, so there wasn't any major issues. He was tongue-tie at the start but that was noticed pretty fast and our local doctor was able to treat that. So he was very good at watching. He was a very good at the breastfeeding. So we had we had generally a good experience At. The biggest was these doubts that set in, you know, and when he's crying and you thinking out, is he not getting enough milk or what's going on? I think I suppose this was the biggest one, and I had great support around me through the breastfeeding support groups that I was part of. At that time. It wasn't as Kind of structured as nowadays, like I can see a lot of groups and even public health nurses Organizing breastfeeding groups. So I think the idea of supporting mothers during their breastfeeding journey has become more important and I'm so happy to see that. But at that time it was more an informal group of moms Happening each other out and just, you know, tapping us on our shoulder, going you doing fine, you're fine, don't worry, you know. I think that's the biggest and most important message your mom could get.Emily:
Yeah, that's sort of at the core of my approach. So I run a breastfeeding boot, empower breastfeeding boot camp, and Of course it's a lot of information about the nuts and bolts of how to feed and you know, supply building, supply and all that. But the biggest impact, I think, is when I hold a live session of moms together and it's a safe space to just share what you're anxious about or the questions you have and hear from other people like I'm anxious about that too, or I was anxious about that. And then here's, you know how I kind of handled it and I hear so often, even for moms who are still pregnant, the babies not here, they haven't even tried breastfeeding yet. I'm worried, I won't make enough milk. Oh, my gosh, where did this fear come from? You have no evidence. This is their first baby. They've no evidence. Yeah, they've heard maybe from other people that had babies and around them I had supply issues or I had to supplement. They just hear these things and Then it becomes well, then I'm probably not gonna make enough. And then immediately Well, how soon should I start pumping to make sure at least I'm pumping out enough milk for the baby? There's like this fundamental distrust that just mom, boo, baby. We can figure this out and a lot of people jump right to the pump. I'm, I'm gonna guess, yeah, what you're developing. You don't want it to replace nursing sessions. It's still important for mom and baby to build that together. But in an instance where a pump could be useful, that's when you know you would bring it in.Eva:
Oh, 100%, 100%, if anything. Quite the opposite. I would like to. I would like our breast pump to be able to Elongate the journey of breastfeeding you know to, to make the make supply last longer and being able to mom and baby spend more time together, breastfeeding absolutely. And even on the other side of of Moms getting I mean those moms who start straight away in breast pumps. I've heard that that's in the US. Sometimes it's it's it's common because moms are planning to go back to work and they wouldn't want to put their babies through the stress of having to Come off the breast early. So they start off with pumping from the get-go and For their breasts to have the same experiences breastfeeding From the get-go. I think that makes even a transition if they decide okay, you know, I will breastfeed my babies. I decided I breastfeed my baby, not just pump. That transition will be so much easier and so much better for both of them. So I thought that bringing that experience way closer to how it feels with the baby is Definitely helping the breastfeeding journey to be better and longer. That, that is my aim. Definitely replace it. Oh my god, that would be the last on my mind.Emily:
Right, but that is yeah. I hear a lot of women jumping straight to. It's most important that I figure out how to successfully pump and I think there's some reassurance, how you can see in the bottle that you have two ounces and when you're feeding, like you were saying, there is doubt. You don't know exactly how much they're getting. Yeah, at first it's hard to tell if they're full. And Also, with nursing, do they want a nurse because they want comfort? Is that they just need a little bit to get to sleep? It's not. It's not just about calories.Eva:
Absolutely. It's about the connection between the mother and the baby, so I think that's hugely important and and I would like I really would like to see that that that connections stays longer because they're using a pump that is closer to her nature, does it? So the Mix supply is likely to be longer as well.Emily:
Yeah, and it would just reduce the the stress, because a lot of women who go back to work in pump hate it. They hate the pumpkin sessions, they're like dreading it, and so if we could take away that dread, that would be a game changer too, I think yeah, absolutely.Eva:
I mean I mean breastfeeding when it's working fine. I'm not saying it's always working fine, I had babies biting my nipple as well but it's. It is a generous speaking, the way nature created it is a comfortable experience because it had to be a comfortable experience, because nature had to make sure that moms are breastfeeding their babies for At least six months or more, until the baby is able to eat something else. Right? So it's it's, it's designed it to be comfortable and and it's super necessary and breast pumps don't do that and like, even the pain and discomfort is such a Such a standard or it's a thing that we now take it for granted with breast pumps. It's almost like not even a question like oh yeah, of course they are hurt. Yeah, it's, it's a matter of fact. As Opposite, to hang on, is there something wrong there? What those ones? Do you know if, if I asked these questions from moms, I love that question because it's it's again, you know, it just highlights the point does breast pumping feel like breastfeeding? And I had to hear a mom saying yeah, it does feel like breastfeeding, because they don't. They don't feel like breastfeeding and if you don't feel like breastfeeding, that they are not the right trigger for our breasts.Emily:
Yeah, no, that's so true, that's so true. And then so I see you have a podcast, let down podcast, and you Explain a little bit about how that came to be, how you first started to be recording the types of guests you have on, and maybe, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so that that kind of developed the same way or at the same time when we were working at the university.Eva:
Because as we were digging deeper, the frustration was growing as well, of course, around how much Moms are sort of left alone in the breastfeeding journey. And I know that there is a great deal of support out there from breastfeeding Organizations and public health nurses and all of that for breastfeeding itself. But from a society level, from a society's perspective, it's still kind of looked at as like a mother's Choice and, with that implied, a mother's responsibility, like as if there is no collective Responsibility to be had here. And that's why, you know, still many moms experience Uncomfort when they're feeding in public or still this. We have the marketing formula, marketing that is so Sly can I use that word I'm not sure to Set in doubt into a mother's mind about their breastfeeding abilities. There are so many other factors on a societal level that are not so talked about, but it's super influential on the mother's journey, on how long breastfeeding is gonna last, and so the podcast is that's why it's called let them podcast is the many ways the the society, unwillingly, it's not like they choose to, but it's still there. There are so many ways letting moms down and their journey for a sitting journey. So what I do on the podcast is I invite guests Scientists, policymakers, anyone who has an influence on what surrounds the mother, the mothers and their babies and we chat about when we can improve what we have at the moment, what is the current situation and how we can improve it and what?Emily:
because you've had quite a few episodes. What are some of the themes that keep? Maybe keep coming up, like you've had multiple guests sort of say the same thing to you.Eva:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of them are coming up. There's a lot of impact of the immediate cultural Surrounding of the mother. So, like the importance of the immediate surrounding and the support that moms get there, like the, the family members, the community that surrounds them, that's extremely influential, from what I hear from my guests, and comes up a lot. The the effect of the formula marketing that comes up a lot as well. How, of course, there are now the baby from the initiative in the hospitals, which is great when they don't allow formula samples to be distributed. But still in many hospitals, the moment you step out from the hospital, you have a goodie bag Hospital including a formula, sample formula and even just that thought of like, yeah, you know what do your breastfeeding, but you know there's the formula just in case. Even the just in case is Enough sometime on a late evening when the baby is not feeding properly the mom, just to kind of turn to the formula as opposed to To a support group or so cool up somebody who could help, right. So it's these tiny things. So that comes up a lot. The cultural aspect comes up a lot. The lack of education In the general practitioners, like doctors and nurses, so you have your lactation consultants. But a lot of, in a lot of cases, when a mom has issues with breastfeeding or just has a lot of issues with breastfeeding or just have an issue, any kind of issue with the baby, they go to visit doctor and the doctor wouldn't necessarily have the, wouldn't necessarily be prepared To recognize the signs that there are issues with lactation so. And they don't make the link to refer them, the mother, to a lactation specialist. So the education that is missing there, that's. That's. That was one of the topics and and that was coming up a few times in different forms.Emily:
Yeah, I've heard of multiple moms who will leave a pediatricians office in tears Because they're getting the message from the pediatrician like maybe you should just supplement, or like yeah you know, just feed the baby formula and that, like they're not getting any sort of support or empowerment or even a referral, it sounds like so I've heard. I've heard that too.Eva:
Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely true. And and how big a doubt can that set in in my mom's mind and a medical professional telling you that? Right yeah.Emily:
And Just the act of podcasting, because I've been doing it for a couple years now too. What have you learned along the way about, you know, having these conversations or just putting out a podcast?Eva:
Well, what I put in a podcast is not easy. I learned that much. I also learned that it's, yeah, like it's not easy to kind of come up with questions on the spot and and focus on all the other aspects of running and recording and making sure all technicalities are in place, and. But also what I find reassuring now might be living in a bubble because I'm speaking with with people who are all devoted advocates for breastfeeding, but there seems to be like a great deal of positive improvement and in everything, like if you just think of the pump act, the most recent passing of the pump act I think that's a phenomenal result and victory for moms who go back to work but there seems to be like a great deal of positive improvement in situations and understanding of these barriers and also how to have to break them down, especially cultural ones. I find that there is a great deal of understanding there now as well and help. So I feel much better than I did before I started the podcast about where we are at and how we are supporting our mothers, not forgetting that there's still a lot to do. Still a lot to do and I feel like with the pump I am able to do one aspect, one important aspect, because it's really, as I say, so many moms go back to work relying on these devices. So having a yeah, good enough device is just not acceptable as far as I'm concerned, we need close to perfect, and the best way to start is look at nature how nature does it.Emily:
And for mom to get to the point where she's returning to work and still breastfeeding, there has to be the support around her at the very beginning to help establish the milk supply. So I can see like, right, you're working on one piece of it, but you're very interested in knowing the big picture of the new mom experience.Eva:
Yeah, absolutely, that's how I see it. Like, breast pump is one aspect of this big picture. We need to move, make moves on every aspect of this big picture. The pump is one that I can do personally and the rest of it I can do by promoting and making space for, for the real advocates who come to the podcast and talk about, about their work and what they're doing.Emily:
That's fantastic and so we're very excited. Would you like to share with everyone what just launched this week? Last week, very, very recently.Eva:
Yeah, very recently, we just launched our Kickstarter fundraising campaign, which is open for all the moms and everyone who understands the struggle that moms go through with pumps. We really want to rewrite how breast pumps work and put the action of the suckling tongue in the middle of the future technologies that come out with breast pumps. So the Kickstarter is a crowdfunding campaign. You can go there and support us in whatever way we can. For moms who are looking for breast pump, it's a perfect opportunity because they can get the color wearable manual breast pump through this campaign and that's a way they can support us. The pump is not ready straight away, of course, so the campaign itself is going to fund the manufacturing process. So the pump is ready. We just need to put through the manufacturing process and establish the distribution for it. That's what we're going to use the funding for. So the pump is expected to come out in June next year. So they can secure it now and they will receive it in nine months time, which might seem like a long time, but it's for $50. Actually, it's 50 euros. So whatever the equivalent in dollars is, I think it's $55. It comes down to there are different packages If you are a partner and you would like to surprise your loved one. There's a gift set that comes with extra goodies. So I really would like to encourage everyone to come and support us, because this is the time when we can really make a change in the breastfeeding industry and breast pumping industry.Emily:
Right, and so if you're pregnant right now, if you recently had a baby, or if you're planning to have one soon, you would likely still be needing a breast pump in June. So it makes total sense to invest today, and then, for those of us who might not need a breast pump per se, there are options on there to just donate because you know this is really important work. And like you said, this could change the future of breast pumping technology for years to come. So it's a cool way to be involved and I speak to so many moms who are sort of past the the birthing and the breastfeeding phase themselves, but they have such a love and compassion for it, wanting to be better for the next generation. They still are sort of processing through some of the traumatic experiences they went through and they say like, oh my gosh, if you know things had been different. And or now I have a daughter, now I have a niece like I would love for things to be better for her. And so this is a concrete way you can, you know, put your money where your mouth is and invest in this technology. That could really be a game changer, help women nurse longer, continue nursing you know if they're going back to work and just provide more options and something that's more comfortable. So I'm super passionate. Obviously, I'm going to be investing in the Kickstarter campaign. We'll post about it on our social media and I'll do a blog post about it and and we'll have a link in these show notes for people who want to head over and and donate, and I'm excited to follow the journey to. This is just exciting. Obviously, you are a woman bringing this technology to market. I'm going to go ahead and guess that there's a lot of, like, male executives behind most of the traditional breast pump companies. I could be wrong. There's probably females too, but we can say for sure this was designed like with a lot of input from you know people who have actually nursed a baby.Eva:
Yeah, that's true. Our lead engineer as well. She's a mom. She, when she started with us, she wasn't a mom and then she became one and just kind of skyrocketed with her in the next 30s.Emily:
Yeah, yeah. So was she using it herself, like the protocol?Eva:
Yeah, Well, she, well, as far as we are, we were able to. You know, like there's a lot of restrictions from regulatory perspective of what we are able to with a prototype, yeah, but yeah, like it's exciting, it's exciting, that's. That's, that's how much I can say.Emily:
It's fantastic. Is there anything we didn't get to cover yet today that you were hoping to share?Eva:
No, I think we covered everything and I'm very excited, I'm very thankful for you to spread the word and I'm really hope. I'm really hopeful that we will be able to make a change.Emily:
And we should say you would like everyone to visit the Kickstarter campaign before October 10th. Is that right?Eva:
That's correct. Yes, so it started last Friday. It's open for 60 days and there's also maybe I should mention that there's a limited number of pumps available. There is enough plenty out there, so don't worry, but still there's a limited number. So if you would like to get your pump, then this is a good time to go.Emily:
Sure, and I think I might just buy the gift set and knowing that I'm sure someone's going to get pregnant and have a baby in the next nine months, and I've got my baby shower gift ready to go.Eva:
So Perfect, perfect. Thank you so much, emily, so much appreciated. Thank you, eva.Emily:
If you would like to support the Kickstarter campaign that Eva told us about, you can go to kickstartercom and if you search for Kala C-A-L-L-A, her campaign will come up and you can choose to just donate money if you want, or you can pre-order one or two of the pumps themselves for yourself or as a gift, and know that you are funding the next generation of how women can pump breast milk out of their breasts, and I'm all for options. I think we have some different options. Breast pumps have seen some innovation recently in terms of wearables and things like that, but the more options the better. And just to get the conversation started that maybe we need to be mimicking the baby suckling instead of just using a vacuum section. So I'm excited. I'm going to go head over and contribute to the campaign. If you would like to be on Spilling the Milk and share with us, please reach me at Emily at empoweredbumsandboobscom. You can follow us on Instagram at empoweredbumsandboobs and on our Instagram profile you will see information about empowered breastfeeding boot camp and how you can sign up for a free course preview. We offer an affiliate program for doulas and other women's health workers If you want to help us get empowered breastfeeding boot camp into the hands of the moms who really need it. We would love to partner with you. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five-star review. That will help boost us to the top when people are searching for breastfeeding information. Until next time, take care.