Speaker 1: 0:06

Hello and welcome to season three of Spilling the Milk. This is the podcast where we normalize everything having to do with breastfeeding, including pregnancy and birth leading up to breastfeeding, as well as the whole postpartum experience. My guest today I'm very excited is Dr Samantha Vabe, dr V. We met recently in person and I'm so glad I got to have her on the podcast. She and I could probably talk for hours, for days. We're so aligned in a lot of the things that we believe about women's instinctual ability to birth, the mind-body connection and everything having to do with that, so please enjoy our conversation. All right, sam, it's great to have you here today, and I do want to start just by asking you to introduce yourself. Let us know what you do and maybe, if you want to mention how you and I met recently, that would be good too.

Speaker 2: 1:07

Yeah, that's great, emily, thanks. So I'm Samantha Vave, or Dr V or Sam whatever you want to call me and I am an expert in childbirth psychology. So I have my PhD in psychology, but my focus is very specific and narrow on the psychology of childbirth, which is not a very common thing. We tend to not really focus on traditionally women's issues in general, but it's really where my passion lies. It's what I'm very excited about. So when I decided to go back to school and get my PhD, I was really focused on human milk feeding and increasing the rates of human milk feeding, and as I started doing the research, what I really found is so much about that is tied into the childbirth experience. So a lot of the barriers we see are barriers that occur during birth, which are things that need to be prepared for and prevented before birth, and so when we have people come in after birth, it's already too late. So I worked to develop a program I call it Mind Body Birth to help people have better birth experiences, better birth outcomes for themselves and the babies, and to have better success feeding, if that's what they want to do.

Speaker 2: 2:31

I also am a sexual health educator. I have an MSW as well, I am a yoga instructor, although I don't teach anymore, but I apply those principles to everything I do Although I don't teach anymore, but I apply those principles to everything I do, even getting up in the morning, and I'm also a certified sound therapist. So I have kind of an all-over-the-place background, but I feel like it really comes together well in the childbirth world. But you and I met at Babies and Bumps, which was really exciting. I got to do a little speaking spot at Babies and Bumps and talk to a full room, which was a little bit nerve wracking but very exciting.

Speaker 1: 3:12

Yeah, oh, that's great. I don't think I realized you were one of the speakers. That's very brave of you, and so everything you just listed happened to be like my favorite topics to talk about. So that makes you, you know, the perfect guest, and I couldn't agree with you more that it really is sort of like the dominoes all fall or like it really is related. So for my own journey, I prepared for birth with hypnobirthing and I always say that the strategies I learned through that did help me with my birth, and then they helped me with breastfeeding, and then they helped me when I'm at the dentist and I'm feeling anxious or any other time.

Speaker 1: 3:50

So it really is, um, like sometimes I see hospitals offer, like you know, a one or two hour childbirth prep class or something, and I'm like okay, but that's not going to be enough to prepare you, and like it really is worth investing in your birth prep because you can use those skills forever.

Speaker 2: 4:09

Yes. So two things that I want to respond to, because I've heard you say on the podcast before that you've used the hypnobirthing at the dentist and I think that's just such a great example. I talk about the dentist a lot in my program because there is this actual condition where people have such extreme fear of the dentist that when they get Novocaine it doesn't work and they don't numb. And I think that's a really good parallel for the childbirth experience, because you just said one to two hours isn't going to help, because what we're batting up against is this basically systemic, ingrained belief that childbirth is the worst thing that a person will ever experience, which is not true. In my program I call it the big lie. The big lie is that childbirth has to be awful and it doesn't have to be awful. Now, if you have an awful childbirth, there's nothing wrong with you. You didn't do anything wrong. It's not your fault. Sometimes things happen. But this general belief that childbirth is terrible is just so, so damaging, and here is why, and it kind of ties back into the dentist.

Speaker 2: 5:22

So we're social learners right, we have to be, because evolutionarily that's how we survived. So if somebody says to you those berries are poisonous and you're like, yeah, right, and you eat the berries, you get poisoned. So our brains evolved to go. I should believe what other people tell me. That is how I survive. So when people or Hollywood and TV and movies show this trope of screaming birth, our brains go. This is what will happen, this is going to happen to me and it's actually causing a new diagnosis that is starting to make its way into the psychology world of pre-TSD. So we talk about post-traumatic stress disorder, but this is pre-traumatic stress disorder because people are so afraid before the traumatic event even happens that they're having a traumatic response ahead of time, which is crazy when you think about that, like how impactful this is. It used to be estimated that about 15% of women said that fear of childbirth was so extreme it impacted their daily functioning. During the pandemic that rose to over 60% and we don't have good numbers now, but that stuff lingers.

Speaker 2: 6:44

So again, social learners. So we hear this is terrible. And then you go into labor and there's some pain, right, and so your brain goes. Everything I ever heard is right this is terrible. And what does that do? It shoots your cortisol level through the roof. Cortisol, the stress hormone, actually makes pain feel more painful. So if you could quantify, if I had, like, this amount of pain, with no cortisol it would feel this painful, but with cortisol it feels this painful, right? Sorry, that was really big hands for people who are just listening, that's right If you're accessing the audio version.

Speaker 1: 7:26

Sam started with her hands close together and she pulled them farther apart.

Speaker 2: 7:29

Yeah, so it feels more painful for the same amount of pain and this is also what happens at the dentist is it blocks cortisol, will block your body's natural pain relief receptors, and so it's all that dental cortisone that prevents the. I'm sorry, it's all of that cortisol, that fear, that prevents the Novocaine from working. And the same thing will happen when you go into labor and it will make your pain feel more painful. So you're anxious. It starts to be painful, you get more anxious, your cortisol increases. It becomes more painful, you get more anxious, your cortisol increases. So I call this the fear pain cycle, and it doesn't have to be your experience. We can stop it, and that's a big part of what my program is is stopping the fear pain cycle, stopping the big lie and helping people have this fearless, joyful birth experience without an epidural and using the strategies I practiced ahead of time.

Speaker 1: 8:50

I will also say having a doula was really instrumental because they can help you come back to your calm state and be like an extra layer of support there 100%.

Speaker 2: 9:00

I highly highly recommend that everyone gets a doula. In my program we talk about sort of the two types of people that are going to be in the room with you and they're your support person, and, whether that's your spouse or your partner or your mom or your best friend, they're the person that's going to bring you ice cream and rub your feet and be there through the whole process and beyond. And then you have your advocate, and your advocate kind of acts as your bouncer in between you and your medical team, in between you and your family, whoever they need to be there. And so, when you can, if you can, it really, really helps if it's a doula. All the research shows that your outcomes will be better if you have a doula present.

Speaker 2: 9:47

So I'm a huge fan of doulas, um, I think they're incredible. And then we talk about what to do if you you know, for whatever reason, if you can't have a doula, because there are places where they're just not a lot of doulas available um, there are people who can't afford to have a doula. I know several that work on sliding scales. So I'm always like reach out, talk to them, let them know what your situation is um, and then at babies and bumps.

Speaker 1: 10:13

I don't know if you saw this table, the behervillagecom. Um, that's a baby registry where you can have friends and family um provide funding for your doula. That's incredible. I know so and because my line is always if I was oprah rich, I would gift a doula to every pregnant mom. Like that this would go. But, um, if you think about your baby shower in your registry, it is very fun to get stuff and cute baby items, but what is going to make or break your experience is someone like a doula. So how loving for friends and family to be able to gift you a doula if you couldn't otherwise afford one. So I'm a big proponent of register for a doula.

Speaker 2: 10:56

That's great. Actually, my godson was just born on Sunday but I gifted his mom a prenatal lactation consultant session and everyone was kind of like that's even a thing you can do. And it's like, yes, because when she got home from the hospital or even in the hospital, and people are like trying you know, they're buzzing around her she's like, oh, I already learned this, I did it ahead of time and so she felt a lot more prepared and it was a lot less stressful. So, yeah, anything that you can do ahead of time really does make a difference. And having those support people in the forms of doulas, lactation consultants, educators, whoever they are, I mean it's, it's seen. It's a tricky situation because, on the one hand, it's like this is very natural, your body knows how to do it, you need to trust your body. On the other hand, we live in a society where we're so disconnected from our bodies all the time and if you're not actively practicing that feeling into your body, it can be quite jarring and you can feel very unprepared if you haven't been preparing.

Speaker 1: 12:13

Yeah, for sure, it's like it is natural. This is what your body is meant to do. However, modern society has layered on all the stuff that gets in the way that we sort of have to peel away to be able to just do the instinctual.

Speaker 1: 12:29

I do want to switch gears just while it's on my mind, because, since you have the sex therapist background something I see on a lot of mom Facebook groups, like postpartum number one people are nervous Like when am I supposed to be intimate with my partner again? Is there a way to get over the anxiety I have? I think feelings of guilt around like you are neglecting your partner's needs. I think there's a very real phenomenon of being touched out as a brand new mom, especially if you're breastfeeding, and so if you want to just speak to like that whole message.

Speaker 2: 13:03

There's so many things there. So, first off, shoulds, supposed tos, it's just, it's so. It's like infuriating and I get it Like I do especially to. I don't want to I don't know imply that there's like masculine fragility or anything like that. But it can be hard. It can be hard for the partner when now there's this baby and the dynamic is changed and there's this sort of inherent relationship between the mom and the birthing person, you know, with that baby and there can be a sense of feeling left out, especially if they're returning to work and there is can be this disconnect and so many of us, you know, find connection through sexual intimacy, and so that pressure is normal, it's natural, it's totally valid. It's also not something that you should let that you need to let force you into doing something that you're not ready there are.

Speaker 2: 14:13

So always listen to your body, your body first, right. Most people. We don't talk about the fact that after you deliver the placenta there is a very large wound inside your body that they say takes six to eight weeks to close. But again, these are averages. People are different, some people heal more slowly and you don't want that kind of pressure and repetitive motion against an open wound and you don't need to feel guilty for not wanting to put yourself in that uncomfortable position. Now tip, it's not uncommon for women to put themselves in uncomfortable positions around sex all the time throughout their lives. Right, so it can be hard to tease apart, because if you've sort of grit your teeth through discomfort or even legitimate pain before, it's kind of like, well, I should just keep doing that now. That sucks, I mean, that's really just the answer to it. It sucks that we feel like we have to live that way. So remember your body is healing and also remember that you are now setting examples for the person that you have just brought into the world, and whether that person is going to grow up with a vagina that will maybe be penetrated by someone someday, or that person is growing up with a penis who's going to be penetrating someone someday. They need to know that these boundaries, this self-care, this love of your body is valid and important, that you don't have to do anything with your body that makes you uncomfortable or causes you pain.

Speaker 2: 16:17

So if you are feeling disconnected from your partner, cuddle. I know that it seems very like PG, but cuddling is so good. It produces oxytocin that will help you with milk production. It will help you heal. It's just so, so great, um. So, yeah, cuddling is great, really.

Speaker 2: 16:43

Just pretend you're a teenager again, you know, take it slow, see what feels good and remember it'll change from day to day. You know, this is one of those yoga lessons, right, we can come to our mat every day and every day it'll be different. Your body is different every day, you know, and depending on where you are in your menstrual cycle returning and your hormones readjusting, how you feel will just change, and it's totally okay If you are feeling pressure, if your partner is actively pressuring you. This is a good, although very hard, but very good opportunity to work on boundaries, because, as a parent, you're going to really need to have strong boundaries. That's what kids need, right. Kids need consistency and boundaries and love and compassion, right, and so the more that you can assert yourself and your needs, the better example that you will set for your kid.

Speaker 1: 17:51

But it's complicated. You touched on a lot of things that, like you said, are not just coming up for the first time. Because you're six weeks postpartum, you maybe have always suppressed your needs. You maybe already have resentments about times you've done things that you didn't really want to have resentments about times you've done things that you didn't really want to. But you know and it is such a time for communication Like you can get away with mediocre communication, maybe before you have a baby in the mix, and then, once baby arrives, you and your partner better have strong communication skills, because resentment on both sides will start to build in no time. Everyone's assuming like the worst of what's going through their partner's head, without clarifying what actually is going through their partner's head.

Speaker 2: 18:36

You're absolutely right. There can be a lot of, you know, assumptions and there can be a lot of sensitivity, postpartum too, just this extra, you know, there's just so many feelings and emotions happening, both good and bad, and it does make you a little bit more primed for jumping to conclusions, which is not always helpful, and these things can be hard, these conversations can be hard. These conversations can be hard even for, you know, people, even for people in the sex therapy world, like these can be hard conversations. So a couple of things to do if you feel like, oh, I can't, I can't have that conversation. This is a great one for hard conversations as adults, but also when you have, like preteen and teen kids driving in the car, because, yeah, the distraction and the lack of eye contact can really help be a good um way to have difficult discussions. You know, uh, my spouse and I we love to road trip and we try to get either to the UP or to Ontario, like up up North in Ontario, once a year at least, and it's always kind of a set aside time of we are going to be in the car and this is an opportunity for us to talk about anything that's come up in our relationship that, you know, might not be the easiest stuff to get into. So I really look forward to these sort of long car trips. You can also write each other letters. That can be a really nice way of communicating where you can get all of your thoughts out without any disruption and without being affected by oh no, my partner just made a face and now I'm thinking about their face and I can't really say what I want to say.

Speaker 2: 20:33

Another activity so I developed this activity many years ago when I was actually working with high-risk youth and I have used it so many times in different capacities throughout my career. But I call it so. I call it red light, green light, and we do it in this class specifically around preparing for birth. So you have three columns on a sheet of paper red, yellow, green, and as you go through the class and we talk about, you know, epidurals, nitrous gas, but also acupuncture and prenatal yoga and sound therapy and aromatherapy, just all of the things that come up, because it can be hard to organize all of this stuff.

Speaker 2: 21:21

Anything that you're like yeah, that sounds amazing. Goes in the green column. Anything that you're like absolutely not, I do that sounds amazing goes in the green column. Anything that you're like absolutely not, I do not want that goes in the red column.

Speaker 2: 21:31

Of course, some things that go in the red column, like a C-section we have to be flexible because we never really know what's going to happen and ultimately, everybody being safe is the goal, and then in the yellow section is anything that you're either. I'm not sure. I want to think about it. I want more time, I want to do more research. Yeah, but we also use this in the sex therapy world and the sexual education world, where people use them when they're like looking at consensual non-monogamy or branching out into the kink world or anything like that non-monogamy or branching out into the kink world or anything like that, where it's like these are the things that I definitely know that I like to do, that I want to do. That goes green. Red is the things that I will. Absolutely I'm never okay with and in that scenario, your red box is no like.

Speaker 2: 22:25

there's no crossing those lines, there's no medically necessary reason to be doing that, yeah, and you just don't even ask. Even asking that's putting pressure on your partner. That's why they put it in the red box, so they don't have to talk about it. I mean, yellow is stuff that's like I don't know. Maybe I want to think about it, maybe I want to try it and reserve the right to say absolutely, not partway into it. And of course, we're fluid people. Things will change, they'll move around on the page.

Speaker 2: 22:50

But you can use this postpartum too. So it's like, and maybe do it every week, every two weeks, as your body starting to change, and check in with yourself. It's a good sort of meditative activity to do alone. Do not do it with your partner in the room. They can do their own list in in the room, they can do their own list in a different room and you're like, does this sound good to me right now? Yeah, maybe. Or oh, yeah, it really really does, or absolutely not. And just think through things that you might like to try to express intimacy with your partner and maybe you're only going to get one thing on that green list. Maybe it's just holding hands, that's okay. Maybe it's having some uninterrupted eye contact or, you know, having a longer kiss. Maybe you haven't really had some long kisses lately. It doesn't have to be this acrobatic epic reintroduction into, you know, a sex life. It's whatever feels right for you, as it really always should be Whatever feels right for you and your partner in this moment, at this time where you are.

Speaker 1: 23:58

Yeah, I really like that activity in both contexts. And the first one I kind of like it because if you go with, like your gut instinct when something's introduced, it's practicing, like tuning into your intuition and how. But it also, I think, like you said, it's fluid because then, as you learn more, maybe about a certain intervention or whatever, you're allowed to change your mind. But yeah, in both contexts that sounds really helpful, your mind, but yeah, in both contexts that sounds really helpful. And yeah, tuning into what do I like, what do I need, without, like you said, being in an active negotiation, seeing the other person's response or their defensiveness and, like on the fly, adjusting what you think, you feel.

Speaker 2: 24:37

Yeah, absolutely which. You know, as people, we're so inclined to do that you know especially women.

Speaker 1: 24:46

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. Well, okay, we are called spilling the milk and we haven't explicitly talked about breastfeeding yet. Um, I like how you said human milk feeding. So that right, because now you're including donor milk. Um, when people have to use like SNS systems, yeah, like the gamut, we just know the nutritional and immuno benefits of breast milk, human milk. How that gets to the baby is up for negotiation, but you're a big proponent of. We need the babies to get the milk, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 25:20

So I'm a big proponent of life is really hard. So if we lived in a world where we had incredible universal health care and everybody got six months paid leave and you know we had all the things, that I would say hands down, absolutely no holds bar. Everybody has to breastfeed, right? We don't live in that world. So obviously there are times when it's just not going to work out the way that you want it to, but in general, yes, I mean all the data is there, all the research is there. You can see it in babies that are milk fed as opposed to formula fed. Just the brightness in their eyes, I mean it's so, so beneficial, it's so beneficial, so, so beneficial, it's so beneficial.

Speaker 2: 26:07

And just jumping back quickly to one of the things that I do run into, is this predetermined I cannot breastfeed because my breasts are sexual, because my breasts belong to my husband, and to that I say your knees are also considered an erogenous zone, but people walk around in skirts. You can use your hands to do everything, from eat to wipe your butt to sexual activities. Right, we need to broaden this idea. But we just have so hyper-sexualized breasts in this culture that it's so hard to get away from and it's awful because they can be great for sex. That's great, but that's not the only purpose they serve and it's certainly not the best purpose that they serve. Feeding tiny humans is what they were designed for and they're very, very good at it. Yeah, but yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:11

So one of the things I talked about before is cortisol, and we do know I find this really interesting that cortisol over time can change the makeup of your milk. And it's not. You don't need to worry, it's not dangerous, it's not bad. But know that if your stress level is through the roof, overfeeding is changing the nutritional value of the milk. Find it's important to find ways. I know it's so hard. It's so easy to just be like self-care. Don't be stressed out. Everything's great. Life is not that simple, it's just not, and so it's so valuable to really dig into what are the things that I can do pre-birth, during birth, post-birth, to keep my anxiety low, to keep my stress level low, to let me feel connected to my body.

Speaker 2: 28:19

Again, holding your baby produces oxytocin. It's so great. That is just like to me. That's the quick and easy like okay, you got to just hold the baby, just hold the baby. But the flip side of that is touch fatigue. We talked to you brought that up a second ago. You know, sometimes your body just doesn't want to be touched anymore and you need to be able to say, hands off, like this is my boundary. I need my nervous system needs to reset, I need to just be me in my body for a second.

Speaker 2: 28:53

And so one of the things that just the research shows over and over again is so beneficial to the birth experience and preventing all of these, to the birth experience and preventing all of these. So I mentioned in the very beginning that I kind of got to childbirth through breastfeeding because I was interested in increasing breastfeeding rates and I found that there are all these things. So it's length of labor, medical interventions, pain medications, interventions, pain medications and fear and anxiety during birth can all impact feeding success. Right Now, if you look at fear and anxiety during birth duration, medical interventions, there's one thing that consistently has shown study after study after study if you do this one thing, your duration will be shorter, you'll have less fear and anxiety and you will have fewer medical interventions. And I'm guessing you can guess what that thing is. Have a doula oh, that too.

Speaker 1: 29:58

Prenatal yoga oh, yes, yes, yes, yes yes, prenatal yoga that would be my other thing. I recommend everybody. Yes.

Speaker 2: 30:05

I'm a huge proponent, too, of prenatal yoga. There's a couple of reasons, like you know. We don't have solid data on this, but all of the theories around it are that it works for a couple of reasons. One it increases the oxygenation in your blood and reduces carbon dioxide, which makes you feel calmer. It increases cerebrospinal circulation, which gets all of those endorphins and serotonin and yummy feelings circulating through your body. It increases strength and flexibility in the pelvic floor, which is obviously great, but also it teaches you to sit with discomfort, but also it teaches you to sit with discomfort.

Speaker 1: 30:49

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Have you seen this TikTok where, like the lady, holds ice cubes in her hands and breathes through the discomfort? I've seen a really good example.

Speaker 2: 30:56

Yeah, yeah, so I've seen a comb, not ice cube.

Speaker 1: 30:59

Oh right, in labor you're right. Yeah, excuse me, labor comb, that's like a common thing yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:09

But yeah, it is this really sort of you learn that everything that you're experiencing is temporary and it will end. I one of my mantras, um, when things kind of became hard for me, uh, post, I was actually one of those weird people who did really well in lockdown. My spouse is a touring musician, so having him home was great. We got to be together. We had a very like tight routine where we got up and we, you know, worked out for 90 minutes to two hours every day and we had designated reading time and we did and it was like, really, really great for me. So when lockdown ended, I experienced a lot of anxiety and had a very hard time reintegrating into the world, especially once I had to start flying again. I've always been a nervous flyer, but after the pandemic it was like, I mean, I struggled just to drive, and so I, my mantra became this this is not forever. Yeah, and no matter what I'm experiencing, to be able to go oh, this isn't forever, like I can do this because it's not forever. It's just for a little bit, I can do this for a little bit, and I find so much value in that and I, you know, really learned that in my yoga practice. When you get into that deep pigeon or chair pose or whatever it is and you think I can't possibly do this, but you can, you can, and so yoga really solidifies that for you in the process, you can do this Does it suck a lot right now? Absolutely. Will you forget that it was this bad in 10 minutes? That it was this bad in 10 minutes? Absolutely, yeah, so, which I find very just, uh, just a very powerful, um, way of being.

Speaker 2: 32:58

But I do have one caveat when it comes to yoga, because I've been a teacher and a lot of studios. I have worked with toxic, toxic yoga instructors. I have worked in toxic studios. I used to teach and practice In a hot yoga studio. These were 75 to 90 minute Hot yoga classes and there was an immense amount of peer pressure To do triples. So hot yoga classes in a row and if you didn't do them, them, you weren't invited to go out to dinner with everybody. No, um, I have just, I mean, I have been in studios where the sexual harassment was rampant, like it's just, there's bad, there's bad, everything out there. There's bad therapists, there's bad doctors, like there might be bad doulas, I don't know, maybe, but there are definitely bad yoga instructors and there are great yoga instructors who are bad for you, you know. Yeah, so if you are pursuing prenatal yoga and it's not working for you, if you leave feeling worse than you did, going in find a different class, and if you cannot, if there's no class, if you've tried online and you don't like online what I practice in my personal practice because I come from a feminine lineage of yoga.

Speaker 2: 34:32

So a lot of times we see yoga and we're like, oh, again, no video. So these strong I mean you know them warrior two chair pose, rigid lines, hold it still, hold, hold, hold, hold, hold right. This is a very masculine approach to yoga that came from yoga that was designed for little boys and then eventually was taught uh by Iyengar when Krishnacharya left him there to uh because he didn't want to deal with the British military. Iyengar is this little guy. He's left with the British military and he's supposed to train them to do yoga. And what did he do? He made it masculine and manly and military and that's what got brought here I never thought about the fact that it's called a warrior oh yeah, absolutely in my lineage.

Speaker 2: 35:27

Yoga came was you invented, appeared to us because so there's Shakti and Shiva, and Shakti is the goddess. She resides in your pelvis. Shiva is the god, he resides in your head. In the practice, you're bringing kundalini, or energy, up from your pelvis to the head. When the two lovers meet, shakt and Shiva, enlightenment occurs. But these you know, god and goddess. Shiva was watching Shakti shower under a waterfall and she's just under the waterfall and she's undulating and she's sort of dancing and she's moving with her breath and she's stretching into these positions. And that is where yoga asana comes from.

Speaker 2: 36:13

And when you think about it that way, it's just a totally different approach, and so I practice what's called spontaneous yoga. There's no poses, there's no asana, they have no names. It's you moving with your breath. Ultimately, that is what yoga is. It's movement with breath. So, again, when it's like hold, hold, hold, still, you're never still unless you're dead, because your breath should always be moving through your body.

Speaker 2: 36:39

Yes, and so when you take a deep think of like a first morning stretch when you get out of bed, you don't do it. It doesn't look like anything, it doesn't have a name, but it feels good. Yeah, but it feels good, yeah. And so how can you let your body tell you how it needs to move and what it wants? And sitting with the breath and then going, maybe just a smidge more and oh, it's a little bit uncomfortable but it's kind of good. Can I stay here?

Speaker 2: 37:07

And then what feels good now is I move my hips or I move my shoulders or I move my fingers or I think about where my tongue is in my mouth, how down and in can you go into your own body, which not only takes out this sort of other person telling you. Do this with your body. It helps because when you get into birth, it helps because when you get into birth, you need spontaneous movement, you need to go down into your body and hear what your body has to say. So these are, like you know, secret little conversations you get to have with your body where you're saying I'm sorry, you know, maybe I've been ignoring you for a little while, but I'm listening now. What do you need? What do we need?

Speaker 1: 37:53

How can we get there together? Because good luck putting a name on some of the positions that someone who's like really in their labor and like the sounds I made. I've never made those sounds in my life. They I don't know where they came from, but I that was just instinctual, the positioning and like it's it is. It's like those micro sensations and you adjusting to it in the moment. And you're right, if you are practicing that in your prenatal yoga, then it doesn't feel so weird in labor to just keep doing that.

Speaker 2: 38:24

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 38:28

Wow Okay, we went down a whole yoga tangent, which is super interesting.

Speaker 2: 38:31

Obviously, I don't know if I got enough into milk. You want me to talk about milk.

Speaker 1: 38:41

Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. It's all related. Oh, I feel like there was something maybe about breastfeeding to go back to Well, so something that I see all the time and I'm still exploring, and you might have like a psychology take on this the idea that I will not make enough milk, that I am not making enough milk, that my baby is still hungry and I haven't made enough milk, that I've pumped too much, so now there's not enough left in my breast because I pumped it all into a bottle. This enoughness and obsession with ounces is so pervasive and I do equate it to like our prenatal fear of birth. There's like this prenatal fear or feeling of lack, or I'm not enough or I won't make enough, and for both of those fears, what helped me was, for all of history, we didn't have electric pumps and we didn't have hospitals and epidurals, and somehow the human race has continued. So there has to be answers other than these medical technologies. Perhaps our bodies can do these things.

Speaker 2: 39:46

So I think you hit the nail on the head, but also you said one word a bunch in that that is so, so poignant you are enough. You are enough as a person. You are enough as a parent. You are enough as a breastfeeder. You are producing enough, you are enough.

Speaker 2: 40:08

And I think it's such a loaded thing because there's so much to it. This sort of you know when we do, we are taught to that. We are not the experts in this process, right? You need a doctor to tell you how to have a baby come out of your body. You need somebody else to tell you how and when to feed your baby and how much? Right? And we get disconnected. We stop believing in our autonomy and our authority and our expertise in our own bodies.

Speaker 2: 40:48

And so when you remove all of that, of course, it's so easy to go. Am I doing it wrong? Am I doing it enough? How would I even know? But you can know and you do know. It's just all of this external and it comes in all parts I really feel like of being a woman. There's so much. You're not enough. You don't know enough.

Speaker 2: 41:12

Prove your worth. Prove your worth. Prove your worth. Prove you can do it, prove you're good enough and we even see it in just like this sort of you know the new mom who goes to change the baby's diaper and her mom steps in and goes, oh let me, you know, let me get in here and fuss around and you don't know what you're doing and it's like maybe it's not going to be the best diaper the first 10 times, but you have to learn your way through it.

Speaker 2: 41:42

Babies are actually incredibly resilient. They are designed for you to learn what you're doing because throughout human history people were first time moms. They had time moms and one thing that I was able to take an indigenous breastfeeding like helpers course that was incredible through this program out in Washington state and we got really into the talk about brown fat and adipose tissue. So before I get into this, if you have a low weight baby or a premature baby, this does not apply to you. Low weight and premature babies do not have brown fat or adipose tissue. But for healthy weight babies babies they are born with fat stores, are born with all of this protection so that if it takes you seven days to really get your milk in, they'll be okay, thank you for saying that.

Speaker 1: 42:42

Let's actually pause. Yeah, your baby, if born a healthy weight, has come with an insurance policy built into their body, because nature does not expect you to be shooting out four ounces of milk day one. That's not how you were designed. That's not how they were designed. So if everyone in the first week of life could take a deep breath and know their baby came with this insurance policy and that even us, as adults, we can burn our stored fat for energy, like if we can't eat anything all day, our bodies will figure out how to use the fat that's stored on us to continue to nourish us and we will be okay until we can find, you know, milk or whatever is needed.

Speaker 2: 43:26

Yeah, absolutely. And even on top of that too, blood sugar changes don't really occur for the first 48 hours, so the baby isn't even experiencing the sensation of hunger.

Speaker 1: 43:39

We think that's so no one, honestly, I like have heard something like that, but you just said it so clearly because it can take, especially if you did have maybe a traumatic birth or you were separated from baby. Those first two days, like you really are still figuring it out, and as long as you're doing the skin to skin, if they're just getting a drop or two of colostrum, you are doing enough.

Speaker 2: 44:04

Absolutely. And you know we, we have so much again, so much panic. The baby cries. It must be starving. Babies only have one method of communication they don't, they can't, recite Shakespeare. You know they are letting you know all kinds of things and if you get the opportunity to really do skin to skin and just be with your baby, you can learn all the different cues and you'll be able to know this is hungry, this is. You know, I just want to be touched, this is cold. But in the beginning, of course, you don't know that it's a brand new person. You're not going to do everything about them yet, but know that when they're crying in those first 48 hours, it is not I am starving. What are you doing? Why are you taking care of me? It is, hey, I'm new here. Oh, my God, I can make noises with my mouth, you know. Yeah, it's learning, Everybody is learning and your baby is resilient and your baby will forgive you While you figure it out. You're learning together. Yeah, it, you figure it out.

Speaker 1: 45:11

You're learning together. Yeah it is. It's like and that's something else I think yoga, prenatal yoga, can teach you. It's just like compassion and patience, and our modern world is DoorDash your food, amazon Prime, your stuff. We are instant gratification. An alert goes off, you take care of it right away, and so the fact that you can't bring instant seeming like resolution to a baby every time it is frustrating, and you have to learn to live in that discomfort and that uncertainty. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 45:41

And so, going back to your, you know how do I know if it's enough? You know there's. There's good charts you can see online where you monitor. You know wet diapers that's a good indication. If you really are feeling stressed out about it, talk to a lactation consultant. I, you know there's a little bit of privilege to just be like. You know, pay someone this money. But there are some that work on sliding scales. You can't. There are services available to help you get one. You know, if your insurance doesn't cover one, even if you get in there and they're like nothing's wrong, right? Some people have this fear of like, oh, everyone's going to say I'm overreacting. If it is causing you anguish, if it is a detriment to your mental health, then go. No one's going to say to you you didn't need to come in and see me. They're going to say I'm glad that you did what you need to do to take care of yourself so that you can take care of your baby.

Speaker 1: 46:44

Yeah, yep, and that's where, if you can establish a relationship, like you gifted to your godson's mother a prenatal visit, now you have a relationship with a lactation consultant and it won't seem so crazy to then just call her up on day two and say could you come check? Yeah, yeah, all the time, and there is a resource. So if you go to the lactation networkcom, you can check who's in your area and who accepts your insurance and get connected to somebody that way too.

Speaker 2: 47:15

Yeah, that's great. That's such a great resource. Yeah, it's. I think it's just important to know that you've got this. You have this. You're going to be okay.

Speaker 1: 47:29

It's going to be okay, you're enough and you can do this and everybody else is going through the same anxieties and the same worries, Absolutely Same with the. You know how do I connect with my partner when my body's not ready? Everyone's going through that same thing. It's not just you, it's not just your household.

Speaker 2: 47:48

And yet all of it, every part pregnancy, birth, intimacy, afterwards, feeding, all of it, whether formula feeding, breastfeeding, both. It's so isolating and it's so lonely, which is somewhat infuriating being on the outside, because you can see that everyone is experiencing these same things. It's so normal, it is so much a part of it now based on where we are, and yet we feel so disconnected in it.

Speaker 1: 48:24

And yeah, especially I mean COVID made it worse, but even since then, okay, I have to tell you you're gonna be really excited and we'll talk about ways to partner. I am opening a brick and mortar, one-stop shop for holistic maternal care, preconception through postpartum. That's awesome, with services like prenatal yoga, prenatal massage, breastfeeding services and so like. Obviously, we're so aligned in what we're trying to do and so once we're open, I'll reach out and we'll see how we can partner there. That would be great. I would love to do that. It's like you're saying, everyone's so isolated, so I'm trying to create a place where you can be in community with other new moms. Yeah, absolutely, yay, okay. Is there anything we didn't cover today that you were hoping to share on the podcast?

Speaker 2: 49:07

So I actually have just finished the. So my approach is called MindBodyBirth and I just finished the manuscript of the book. It's at the publishers right now. So the book will be available in the next couple of months and I'm actually hoping to do a big pre-order special where you get a bunch of additional little goodies, including a custom aromatherapy bracelet. That's handmade charms by a woman-owned business, so I'm very excited about that. If you're interested in it, there will be a sign up to get notified on my website, which is sound-birthingcom. Also on that website, you can sign up to take my course online. Also on that website, you can sign up to take my course online.

Speaker 2: 49:53

So I do do it in person. I typically do it in a workshop or retreat sort of settings. So especially if it's like you have a group of people that are also pregnant in your life, or there's three of you or 10 of you and you're like, hey, let's, we're going to rent an Airbnb and we're going to do this for the weekend, that would be so cool, it's fun, it's really fun. We get to do a lot of activities, you get to have space, you get to have sound baths.

Speaker 2: 50:21

Like I said, I'm a sound therapist and so when you take the online course, you get downloadable sound baths that you can use when you're giving birth, when you're breastfeeding, just whatever you want in life but you get live sound baths in the in-person course. So if you're interested in booking one of these workshop retreats, definitely reach out. But also, the course is self-paced online, which I really like because, of course, the sooner you do it, the more time you have to practice everything that we talk about. But if you're like I really put this off and my due date is in five days, you can still sit down and do the whole course or at least skip through and do the parts that are most important to you, yeah, and be a little bit more prepared going in, for sure.

Speaker 1: 51:12

Yeah, great. So soundbirthcom, sound hype I saw it in my head, sound-birthcom, which we can remember, because you want likea sound birth, but you also have sound healing for your birth.

Speaker 2: 51:28

So I get it Sound hyphen birthing with an ingcom, but yeah, so my thing is, you know, sound therapy, sound logic, safe and sound sound birthing, oh, okay.

Speaker 1: 51:40

Well, that is very helpful. We'll remember that, but I will have the actual link in the show notes. It's very easy to get there and, yeah, I can't wait to see how maybe we partner in the future and stay in touch, because I love what you do and I'm so glad we got to connect.

Speaker 2: 51:54

Likewise, this has been so great.

Speaker 1: 51:56

Thank you, sam. Have a good rest of your day, you too, you.