Speaker 1: 0:10

Hello and welcome to Spilling the Milk, the podcast where we normalize breastfeeding and talk about all the different things that can impact a mom's breastfeeding journey. Today we're focusing on. One big thing that affects a breastfeeding mom's journey is how her birth goes, as well as her postpartum support. And to that end, I'm talking to a doula. Her name is Gail Tupin and she is actually going to be working at Home, mama Michigan, with me in Brighton, michigan, and she is certified as both a birth and a postpartum doula. And she is certified as both a birth and a postpartum doula. In this episode we focus a bit more on the birth doula aspect, just because I think that might be a little newer to listeners maybe, and there's just a bit more to it. But I want to make sure to highlight that she also offers postpartum and even overnight care to support new parents, and in the show notes I will provide all of her information. So, if you are local to Metro Detroit, she is actively booking for both birth and postpartum doula services and would love to do a free consultation with you.

Speaker 1: 1:18

I have some skin in the game here because I wholeheartedly support the expansion of the use of doulas. It's so silly that it's still so rare that someone would have a doula at their birth, and I understand, because in general, insurance does not cover doulas. Though some states, including Michigan, the Medicaid program is now covering birth and postpartum doulas, which is amazing, and my hope and my wish is that the commercial insurers follow suit. I always say, if I was running an insurance company and it was my job to like save money or be more efficient or have better outcomes for people, one of the first things I would do is cover doula services. We have research to show that when a doula is present at a birth, the rate of interventions and including c-sections, goes down.

Speaker 1: 2:20

The things that cost lots of money don't have to happen a lot of the time when a new mom works with a doula, and part of that is the preparation that you do too, which goes hand in hand with the hypnobirthing classes that I teach.

Speaker 1: 2:35

So obviously I believe that insurance companies should also be paying for, you know, childbirth classes and lots of other wraparound services, and maybe one day we'll get there. In the meantime, I want to make sure everyone who's pregnant knows the benefits of hiring a doula and some of the ways that you can help pay for it, because one thing that we're going to add to the Whole Mama Michigan website is the ability to add some of our services to your baby registry. So maybe you get the stroller you want secondhand off a mom swap site, and so, instead of somebody gifting you your stroller at your shower, they're contributing towards your doula care either your birth doula or your postpartum doula, or a prenatal massage or prenatal yoga classes. All of these services and experiences that we know actually impact the new mom journey. So with that, please welcome my guest, gail.

Speaker 2: 3:51

Thanks for having me, emily. I'm very excited to talk about this. This is my passion and an area that I'm still, you know, learning a lot about and growing in, but also been really diving into. So, yeah, just excited to share this information with people.

Speaker 1: 4:06

Great. Could you start by telling us a little bit about your path to becoming a birth doula? Is that what you went to school for? Is that what you've always wanted to be, Sort of you know? Catch us up to present day, yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:20

So started out not on the path to become a doula, I was interested in. Occupational therapy was the first kind of goal I had when I was going to college. I studied kinesiology at the University of Michigan and then took some time off after I graduated to kind of figure out if I still wanted to do occupational therapy. I started working at a physical therapy clinic and then I kind of got into that direction of going to physical therapy school. So applied, got in, I was enrolled to go to physical therapy school and then I just I just wasn't um super connected to it. I uh, there's kind of a lot behind that, but the gist of it is I I just didn't feel called to it. I love the field, I think that physical therapists do amazing things, but I just didn't feel like I wanted to do that myself, so continued working at the physical therapy clinic I worked with.

Speaker 2: 5:37

For a couple of years I worked with moms that were coming in for prenatal or postpartum physical therapy, pelvic floor physical therapy. So just I really connected with that work, with working with those moms and kind of hearing about their experiences, seeing how what they were feeling and and kind of journeying with them, and I really loved that aspect of my work at the clinic and so I had one of the pelvic floor therapists who I'm really close with. She suggested to me that I look into becoming a doula, because she just knows my personality, she knows that I just am a compassionate person. I really liked my work at the clinic but I didn't want to go into PT. So, yeah, I looked into becoming a doula and I just kind of went full speed ahead into it. I really loved the work that they do, which I'll get into and yeah. So that's kind of what got me to where I am.

Speaker 1: 6:49

I love that story. I think it can resonate with people, even if they don't end up becoming a doula. Just that you sort of stayed open to finding what resonated with you, I do think that's you know. You go to school for one thing, like you take your best guess at age 18 and like you go through college and like you get some more data and then, like, you take your best guess at your first job and then while you're there, you just get this real world experience.

Speaker 1: 7:12

You interact with people, you find out like who you resonate with, what types of like tasks and skills you're naturally good at or interested in, and then you can sort of decide on your next right step. So I think this is a cool like separate from the doula experience just it's a cool story of sort of finding your path. So I love that. And now this brings us to what in the world is a birth doula and why, if I'm a pregnant mom, would I maybe want to look into hiring one why, if I'm a pregnant mom would I maybe want to look into hiring one.

Speaker 2: 7:42

So a birth doula and there are a couple of different types of doulas, but we'll focus on birth doulas. They are there to accompany you and your family, whether you're a first time parent or you have a couple of kids, kiddos already, just um, just there to accompany you through the entire process, from when you, you know, from conception through postpartum Um. So doulas can help you plan for your birth, talk you talk through um any fears or worries that you have about what's going to happen. You know things you might be unsure about um things you're maybe nervous about um in, like going into labor or if you're having deciding between a certain um practice, like whether you want to go into it with an OB or at a hospital, or a midwife group at a hospital or have a home birth. So we can kind of help you navigate those things.

Speaker 2: 8:48

The gist of it is that we're just there to support you, whether it's emotionally, physically, both before, while you're pregnant, and during the birth, and then also just helping with that educational aspect of things, where we have a very large background. We're not medical providers but we do have a lot of medical knowledge and have that background in what are the different things that can happen leading up to birth and during labor and birth. So we can be that resource for you. And we also have a lot of connections within the community. That's just part of our role is connecting with other providers in the community or different practitioners that like mental health providers or, you know, physical therapists, chiropractors, that kind of thing for people that can support you along the way as well, so we can connect you with those resources throughout the process.

Speaker 1: 9:52

So you've explained the role. Could you tell us specifically how you're different from the midwife, like during labor and delivery?

Speaker 2: 10:02

Definitely yeah. So midwives are that medical person. So, like I said, we're not the medical provider, we're kind of just more of a general, like support role and the midwives are the provider that's going to, you know, take your vitals or you're going to have those prenatal appointments with them and they're going to do different tests and that kind of a thing with you to make sure you're healthy and baby's healthy, and then they're going to help you with the delivery of your baby, whereas we we don't catch babies. We're there to be by your side and your partner's side and guide you through the process and give you that support throughout, but we're not going to actually deliver a baby. That's their role.

Speaker 1: 10:47

So teamwork makes the dream work. Midwife has that role, you have their role. And then if someone has a doula, is it still appropriate for them to have, like their partner there or their mom or their sister or their support person? Like, how are you different from maybe another support person in the room?

Speaker 2: 11:03

One hundred percent. You can definitely have all those people that you want at your birth you can have there, because that's going to make you feel the most at ease, that's going to help you be confident and calm going into the whole process. So we definitely want those people there that you want at your birth, including the doula. So we can. Our role is to kind of mold ourselves into that family unit unit or that support unit and kind of tailor our role to what you're looking for. So if that's like you want more of that physical comfort measures or different massage during birth or, you know, like meditative experience, like we can guide you through all of that or we can, you know, give that educational support to your partner and different things that they can engage in with you throughout the process. So we're we're kind of there to fill different gaps throughout the, throughout your birth.

Speaker 1: 12:16

And I have seen there's, there's, you know, there's research at this point that having a doula present during your labor and delivery reduces the uh C-section rate, the intervention rate overall, drastically, dramatically Like. I don't remember the exact number, but it's a big difference whether a doula is present or not. How, in your experience, would you explain that? How does the presence of a doula impact whether or not certain interventions end up coming into play?

Speaker 2: 12:51

Yeah. So I would say that, first of all, your mind-body connection. That's a big thing. So if you're calm and confident going into it, if you feel like you're supported, you're not alone in the experience and you have those needs met, you have someone you can go to if you're unsure about something, that's going to play a huge role in how your body is feeling as well and how you're laboring. I think that plays a big role in things going maybe a little bit more smoothly.

Speaker 2: 13:32

I also think that, just like being educated on certain interventions and knowing that you have the right to ask questions, ask what the benefits of certain interventions are, ask what the risks are and ask for alternatives, that's kind of what we can help you do during your labor and birth, so that maybe you don't get a certain intervention and you can kind of try something different. Or, yeah, just kind of being educated in those areas so that you can reduce those interventions and hopefully reduce the risk of having a C-section. I know that's just one kind of answer to that question, but I think just having that support goes a really long way.

Speaker 1: 14:30

Well, I sort of see it as the doula is like this buffer, like this non-emotionally involved buffer. I mean, of course you have emotions and like you, care about mom and the baby. But you have a bit more of an objective perspective and so when Right like unbiased.

Speaker 1: 14:50

Yeah, and you are aware of what mom and dad have sort of hoped for, their preferences talked about ahead of time. So you are listening, for the practitioner suggests something and your radar maybe goes up like, oh, I remember we talked about this and they had a preference about this. So you can sort of just create that pause in between. Practitioners suggest something and mom and dad are very emotionally invested. This is like the most important thing ever for them. And so and I've, I've been there You're thinking with your not necessarily logical brain, you're very much in your emotions and so, to have someone remind you, would you like to ask any questions? Do you understand the risks and benefits? That's kind of how I see the doula coming in there and providing that pause before making sort of like a fear-based or an emotion-based decision. Right, right.

Speaker 2: 15:51

Yeah, kind of grounding yourself a little bit and giving yourself that space. I love how you say it. It's definitely that pause moment because you're not in that space. I love how you say it. It's definitely that pause moment because you're not in that body, you're not in that person's body, you don't have all those things happening to you at that time. So you can take that second to be like yeah, like you said, we discussed this. How are you feeling? Have you changed your mind? Do you want to talk about it a little bit? Do you you know what are you thinking mind? Do you want to talk about it a little bit? Do you you know what are you thinking?

Speaker 1: 16:21

So, so we kind of can go through all those things. And my favorite part is just that doulas have been at multiple births, like especially when it's when you're the mom and it's your first time, you don't have anything to compare this to. So doulas have this like catalog of possibilities in their head. You don't just have this one birth to compare it to. And so, um, I yeah, I also see that, and same with the partner. Likely the partner has never been in this situation before, or maybe they have once before, but again the doula brings like this catalog of possibilities, of experience um to the situation. So that's cause I had a doula with all of my births and, um, yeah, I'm a huge fan.

Speaker 1: 17:03

So, as you know, um but I guess, um, what is something maybe that has surprised you in your doula work, Like you went into it because you were really resonating with the journey of moms and, um, you knew you, you were just attracted to this field. So I guess, on your journey, what has maybe been a surprise? Um, that's come up.

Speaker 2: 17:31

Um, I would say there is always something new to learn.

Speaker 2: 17:37

You think you get, like you know, you get your basic training, but there is always something new to learn, whether it's about the variety of different comfort measures you can provide People get really creative and it's really cool to learn from other doulas what you can do to support parents in those comfort measures or whether it is different things that people try to get labor started.

Speaker 2: 18:14

I definitely have learned a lot of different things from different things to eat or different what is the word like Chinese medicine or Eastern medicine practices, those kind of things that are different traditions that people use to kind of get labor started. Yeah, there's always something new to learn. I think even really seasoned doulas admit to that too that, like, no birth is the same. Even if you do have that experience, there may be something that comes up in a new birth that, like you haven't encountered before. So we are there supporting the parents and the family through this, but we're also prepared for it being an experience that we can't control and always like learning with them and kind of rolling with with what comes, yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:18

So yeah, and you, you've touched on the idea of comfort measures a couple of times and in my mind those are generally things we're doing in place of like um an epidural or um like what's yeah. I guess like medicine? Yeah, but if someone thinks they might want an epidural during labor, should they still consider working with a doula? Um, or would a doula be only, if you like, are set on an unmedicated birth?

Speaker 2: 19:52

or would a doula be only if you like, are set on an unmedicated birth? Oh, definitely, yeah, you can definitely still work with a doula If you. There are many people that want doulas that are like if I want this pain medication, I'm going to take it. If I want an epidural, I'm going to get it. And we're there to be like, okay, I support you in that. We're not judging you in in any of your decisions. We're not just there to be like okay, I support you in that, we're not judging you in any of your decisions. We're not just there to support natural, like all natural unmedicated births. We can help you move things, do different positions and movements to help continue labor while you have your epidural as well. So that's kind of another benefit, um, and we can help you during the pushing phase and with um, helping your baby latch once you have your baby, if you're um planning on breastfeeding. So there's, there's just a lot of things doulas can do in addition to um. You know, the all natural births. We're there for all types of births.

Speaker 1: 20:57

Yeah, and actually you made me think of something when you said, like we can help you move into different positions even if you have an epidural. I think one of the reasons I am such a fan of having a doula on your birth team is that you have no control over who the labor and delivery nurses are when you get to the hospital. Some of them are fantastic and will actually help you with some of these like comfort measures and changing positions, and some of them won't, and some of you know some of them will almost pressure you into maybe interventions that you didn't want or medication you didn't want, and that's just something you don't have control over. At the hospital I've had, you know I've had a range of different nurses over three babies, and if I was only relying on them, I don't think I would have had the same experience.

Speaker 1: 21:40

Same thing with breastfeeding you can't guarantee how the nurse or if you'll even get to see the on-call lactation consultant when you're there. So having a doula who can help you with that first latch, or hiring a lactation consultant yourself, it's just like this insurance policy that you're going to get the level of care that you want, instead of sort of playing the Russian roulette of who's on call. You know that day when you go to the hospital and you generally a lot of people feel like they can control who their practitioner is, like their OB or their midwife, which sometimes you can like if you schedule an induction and they're there. But there's just so many variables at play. For me, that doula is like this constant support person who knows you and is guaranteed to be with you sort of like through the whole thing. To be with you sort of like through the whole thing.

Speaker 2: 22:30

Through the whole thing, yeah, and your partner too, so that you guys have established that relationship far, hopefully, far in advance. I mean, you can do, do what you can in a couple of weeks too, if you hire, I'll do a last minute. But you've you have those prenatal visits, you've had phone calls, you've been in communication and I think for a lot of people some people they don't care and they're they're, they can form relationships pretty quickly and that kind of thing. But I think for a lot of people it is important to have that like safety, that safe space, that person they trust, and that security and that really vulnerable space when you're you're exposing your whole body to this person that you may have just had a few months ago.

Speaker 1: 23:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:15

So I think that's another piece of just that trust.

Speaker 2: 23:20

Like you want to have someone you, you trusting can be, like you said that, constant throughout. And yeah, I've noticed a lot of variety too in, like, the nursing staff, and I wasn't really expecting them. I was kind of on the other side where I thought I'm going into it, I have, you know, my own judgments going into it and I've learned a lot from those things that, like, there are some nurses that have all that knowledge they want you to have like your best birth experience and, um, they, you know, help you with, yeah, different positioning. They have different um background in that and I think, uh, that that part was really cool, learning that, um, you can have them like on your team in that way too. The other thing is, like it depends on how busy they are to like a ton of time to spend with you in that way, or are they, you know, bouncing, are they like swamped, and they have a ton of people in labor and you know, you know you have your, your doula and your partner there the whole time.

Speaker 1: 24:31

You're right, exactly, it could be like the best nurse in the world and she or he is responsible for so many people at the same time that you know. Right, right, um. So you mentioned that part of um like working with you would be some prenatal visits to get to know each other. Plan for the birth Um, obviously you're the birth and then can you talk a little bit about postpartum, like how you would support a mom in that way?

Speaker 2: 24:58

Yeah, so there are usually. With like a birth package, we would include one postpartum visit of our I would in my practice, just to check in, see how you're doing, see how you know, depending on how your birth went, you could have had like the best birth experience and and you're still feeling great and you're adjusting great, and we want to hear that. We want to want you to have a space to process that and to talk about it. But also, like, depending on how your birth went, if your birth didn't meet your expectations and and things went differently than you um had hoped, we want also want to process that with you as well. So, um, just giving you that space to process it, um with someone who is there with you is what we do at that postpartum visit.

Speaker 2: 25:52

We can help with lactation, too and see how you're doing with breastfeeding or feeding in general, whether it is formula feeding or breastfeeding, and just check in with how you're adjusting to having this new baby with you in the home. Yeah, we can also do some light housework stuff for you just to take that extra work off of you so that you can just be resting and taking care of yourself, taking care of your baby and encourage you to do that Answer any questions you might have, yeah, and then you can take. So there are postpartum doulas as well. Um, I also am a postpartum doula and and we would we can do additional visits to that to continue that care throughout your postpartum experience. Um, so it doesn't have to end like right at that one visit If you still want more support.

Speaker 2: 26:54

We can provide that for you.

Speaker 1: 26:56

I do love that, though, how you described giving mom the space specifically to process her birth, because it is one of the most impactful events I, personally speaking, like in my life. Every year on my kid's birthday I sort of like replay the whole series of events of their birth. It definitely sticks with you. And to be able to just sort of like process that out loud with somebody who's this nonjudgmental holder of space because if you're trying to process it with your partner, they're going to have an emotional response Like they were in it too. They probably had their own experience. They maybe were afraid at certain points and didn't want to tell you.

Speaker 1: 27:38

If you're processing it with you know mom, like baby's grandma, like they're, they're in their own space and their you know experience. Or if you talk about it with, like your currently pregnant friend you don't really want to influence, like their upcoming birth, you don't want to tell them all the nitty gritty. So to have that nonjudgmental person who is just like let's talk about this, whatever you want to get off your chest, I'm here. So I love that as sort of the first postpartum visit and then, like you said, like Um postpartum doulas are just super comfortable with newborn care and then like postpartum care of mom and support of mom and um, there's really nothing like it. If you, um, if you are thinking you might want some extra support, especially, especially, I would say, if your partner is returning to work, um, or you just don't have sort of a full-time support person at home, support person at home?

Speaker 2: 28:38

Definitely, yeah, I was recently or I'm currently reading a book about fourth trimester and it is just really inspiring.

Speaker 2: 28:43

And the main, the main theme is that moms are often in survival mode after they have their baby and instead of like this, I don't know, in a lot of different cultures, the author talks about how the family comes in and it's really this restful period, no matter how your birth went, it's just this period of and I know you and I have talked about this too like pampering the mom so that and like knowing that you deserve that in that time is just like creating that like sanctuary space where you feel safe, you feel taken care of and comfortable so that you can care for your body. That's healing and that's supporting a new life. I think it's just not talked about and enough. And yeah, it's cool to work in a space where we bring attention to that and can educate moms on that.

Speaker 1: 29:53

Yeah, and I hope that awareness of this is only going to grow. It's sort of like we've gotten away from the cultural practice of mothering the mother or nurturing the mother um sort of in our industrialized, like goal oriented check the box society.

Speaker 1: 30:10

It really does feel like, okay, I had the baby check the box, now like back to regular life and um, you know, you get the paper when you leave the hospital. It probably says something like take it easy for seven days or you know those things. You're mostly worried about the baby. At that point you're reading.

Speaker 1: 30:30

Okay, they should be eating this often like. Peeing and pooping this often like. Watch out for these signs and bring them to the ER immediately. You're so focused on taking care of the baby that, unless you have the support and also the knowledge, it's really easy to not take care of your postpartum body, which is, yes, going through a lot of adjustments. So I so I'm glad we're raising awareness and um I'm excited that we're going to have postpartum and birth doula services available um for for moms who want it. And can you um let us know what is your website and your Instagram if people want to follow you or check out your packages?

Speaker 2: 31:08

Yes, so the my website is um, I've got to get the whole thing rooted. R O O T E D dash doula D O U L Acom. Um, and then my Instagram, I believe is the same thing I'm going to have to confirm yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:32

Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes, um, but yeah, uh, and then I'd be happy to answer any questions or, um, you know, if anyone is looking to become a doula, I would love to talk about that. I love, um, just talking to people about their career journeys and, and you know, maybe give them some inspiration to join this awesome work or see what might be a good fit for them, where they might want to train that kind of a thing.

Speaker 1: 32:02

Yeah, very helpful. So people can reach out to you, whether they are thinking about doula services for themselves, or if they, if this is sort of resonating and they're wondering services for themselves, or if they, if this is sort of resonating and they're wondering, maybe I should transition to being a doula, or you know some people can do, you know, take on doula work in addition to maybe what else, whatever else they're also doing, and then you know you might make the transition to do a full-time.

Speaker 1: 32:28

but and is there anything else that we didn't touch on today that you wanted to make sure we shared today?

Speaker 2: 32:34

I would say, if you just have any questions, reach out to one and see who's a good fit for you. Yeah, there might be some doulas that are a better fit for you than others, and that's okay, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:45

That's a great point. It's very normal to meet with a couple and see who's sort of on the same wavelength as you, because, right, they'll be just different personalities. So a doula is not going to be offended if you say like, oh, I'm also meeting with a couple different people. They'll think, oh, that's pretty normal, so let me know if you want to work with me. Yeah, it's a pretty collegial community. Everybody wants mom to find the right fit Right, definitely All right, thank you. Everybody wants mom to find the right fit Right.

Speaker 2: 33:16

Definitely All right thank you so much, Gail. Thanks for having me, Emily.