Spilling the Milk: Breastfeeding Chats

Holly J - Tandem Nursing & Supporting High-Risk Families

Emily Stone, Learning Tailor LLC Season 1 Episode 3

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Holly is a mom of 3, two boys (8 & 10) and a 4 year old girl who can do just about anything her brothers can…while wearing a princess dress. Holly is passionate about her work through Parents as Teachers, where she visits with families to make sure that all children will learn, grow, and develop to realize their full potential. She is also a “Happier in Hollywood” fan, which is how we connected!

We discuss oversupply, cabbage leaves, Baby Led Weaning, tandem nursing, supporting at-risk moms and families, WIC peer counselors, the secret recipe for breastfeeding (spoiler alert: there are only two ingredients), kissing baby foreheads, and mom guilt related to having a second baby.

Resources
Parents as Teachers website
Information on becoming a WIC Peer Counselor
An explanation of Baby-Led Weaning

Credits
Podcast artwork by Staci Oswald Creative - logos, branding, and photography
Produced by Empowered Bumps & Boobs - modern, holistic support & education for women navigating fertility, pregnancy, birth and beyond.
Music - "Playdate" by The Great North Sound Society

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Podcast artwork for Seasons 1 & 2 by Staci Oswald aka my favorite designer EVER + mom of 2 bundles of boy energy

Audio file 

Transcript 

Emily 

Hello and welcome to spilling the milk. The podcast where we talk about breastfeeding. You know the thing that moms have been doing since the beginning of time and yet it's still not really talked about as much as it needs to be. 

We're here to fix that. 

Emily 

Today I'm speaking with Holly, a mom of three living in Delaware. Holly, and I connected in a Facebook group for one of our mutually favorite podcasts. Happier in Hollywood with Liz Craft, and Sarah Fain. I had posted about the podcast in our group and right away she responded that she'd love to be a guest and loved to talk to me about her experience with tandem nursing her toddler and newborn, and the work that she does supporting moms who are breastfeeding. So I really enjoyed our conversation and I hope you. 

Take a listen. 

Emily 

Hi Holly, welcome. I know you've told me you have two boys, 8 and 10 and then a little girl who's 4 so take us back to the beginning of your breast feeding journey. 

Holly 

I am a big planner and I'm also like a researcher. I've worked in early childhood my whole life and run in some pretty hippie circles. So I went in knowing that I was going to breast feed and knowing that I knew everything about breastfeeding and it was going to be perfect and easy. And then I had a healthy baby boy who, you know, latched on immediately, but. 

It still threw me for such a loop just being the sole source of nutrition and comfort for this new human while recovering from a pretty difficult labor and birth. And there's so much you know, the exhaustion and the hormones. We had a really hard time getting started, just. 

I would say five or six weeks. My nipples were sore and cracked and bleeding and every time I knew he was hungry. I would kind of cringe and I never wanted to feed him on the left side. I remember when it was time for the left side, I was always like in tears but once we got over that six week hump  it just it became so easy and so natural. We had a little bit of oversupply, so that was difficult. He had some stomach issues due to that, but we sort of figured out how to balance that an the let down was really strong so I would have to pop him off during let down and then put him back on when it was a slower flow. But once we figured that out, I knew that I wanted to keep breastfeeding as long as he wanted to and then when he was nine months old, I found out that I was pregnant again. So I was sort of hit with the. Do I stop breastfeeding? This thing that's been really successful and a really good bonding thing. Or do I continue? And that's sort of how I ended up tandem nursing for several years. 

Emily 

That is so cool. It's funny because your description of the first six weeks, like I probably could have said about exactly the same thing. 

Emily 

Really, yeah, I thought I was prepared and I thought were doing good. But yeah, all the pain an all the latching and the crack nipples and. 

Emily 

Did you do cabbage leaves? 

Holly 

No, you know what I never did I kind of I was afraid the so the oversupply made things difficult just because I was always in Gorged and like they were rock hard and it was hard for him to latch on to that. But I was always afraid to mess with it too much and go in the opposite direction. 

Emily 

Yeah, now I think with my second I ended up doing cabbage leaves and I was just. 

Emily 

It was probably just those first few days when, like you're saying, it's just like two rocks on your chest, right? Maybe some reason it's like the coolness of the cabbage really like relieve the pain and somehow it also just made things deflate a tiny bit. So alright, I do recommend the cabbage leaves yeah, so then. So now you still got a baby. 

Emily 

Enter pregnant. 

Emily 

Right did you, um, experience supply issues once you were pregnant? Or how did it go? 

Holly 

I did my supply drops pretty substantially and at that point. Thankfully, my oldest loved solid foods and we did some baby led weaning and he really liked it so I wasn't as much worried about his about input, but those myself. I started dropping and he started dropping nursing sessions and I I would. I was a little emotional. I know I don't know if you had the same experience but when I was pregnant with my second I. 

Holly 

And we planned it and everything, but I sort of was like, Oh my gosh, I've ruined my baby's life and I can't believe that I'm taking away from him like all my time and attention. I felt really emotional about at, you know, adding another baby to. 

Holly 

The House Yeah I. 

Emily 

Think you? I think you just described every mom ever who like, has a second baby. 

Holly 

Right, I think it's pretty universal. 

Holly 

Which now I am, I tell my kids all the time, the best gift I could ever give them as their siblings. That feeling I think goes away pretty quickly. But I really so I was devastated that he was dropping nursing sessions and then what ended up happening. His eye teeth came in and he had a really hard time with those. So he then was nursing for comfort a lot more and it was sort of. 

Holly 

It was about the middle of my pregnancy. By then, I don't think I had much of a supply at all, but we still we were nursing a lot and it was nice because having by that at that point he was a toddler. He was moving around an it was nice to be able to, you know, have him with me on the couch and feel like I was bonding with him and giving him something but I could be laying there half asleep. 

Holly 

So nursing through pregnancy with a toddler was actually, I found it really rewarding. Just because it was a way to sort of slow things down and still feel like I was giving him something. 

Emily 

Yeah, that's right. It's like the one time they'll just slow down for a minute and come sit with you on the couch like that. 

Holly 

Exactly, it didn't happen much otherwise my. 

Emily 

Favorite too is like you know, I still have to get shots at like 9 months, 12 months. 

Emily 

And it's just a nice tool to have to calm them down right away with the shot. 

Holly 

Exactly exactly, I yeah, I don't think I ever really get had my babies vaccinated without giving without nursing them through it. And I'm not sure that I know how to do it. 

Emily 

And Luckily I had pediatricians that were always super friendly to their like staying here as long as you want. If you want to nurse him afterwards like you know, just take your time. So I always felt like really supported and doing that too, that's. 

Holly 

So helpful, I think that's so helpful when moms, especially new moms don't feel like they're, you know, taking up that space and when they feel supported and breastfeeding. 

Emily 

Yeah, and it's kind of hard to know ahead of time if your pediatrician is going to be super supportive, like with my second, he really had trouble gaining weight at the very beginning, but she never even said the word formula. She just sort of kept checking in and trusted me that I knew what I was doing. It trusted the baby an like eventually. You know, now he's. 

Emily 

Whatever 60th percentile 6 year old, but I feel like that's so rare that most times I hear that moms were like guilted into supplementing or like made to think that that was the only option. And the doctor did not trust them to kind of get through it. 

Holly 

Absolutely, which I work with a lot of new moms and, uh. 

Holly 

There are usually what we call high risk, so like low socioeconomic status or teen moms or moms have struggled with addiction and we talk a lot about advocating for themselves and their children at the doctors and especially with breastfeeding. A lot of these moms are offered formula in the hospital. You know, people assume that they. 

Holly 

Won't breastfeed or won't be successful with it and finding care providers that are supportive of breastfeeding and not willing to just, you know, give them formula and how it's sort of it's to help them give up. You know it's important it's so valuable and the confidence that these moms have when they're when their providers show that confidence in them and let them. 

Holly 

Be the mom and make those decisions. It goes along way. 

Emily 

And how did you get involved with supporting new mounts? 

Holly 

So I um, do home visiting through the organization is called parents as teachers. There are probably about a dozen like National Home visiting programs, and they're sort of the best kept secret of the early childhood world. They're federally funded for the most part and then states have their own funding streams too. Depending on the state, but they're in all 50 States and they serve. 

Holly 

So our program right now only serves these families with risk factors, but they you know there are some programs that are available for all first time parents an it's the most rewarding job. I actually when my second was a toddler and I had stayed at home with my boys for a few years and I was sort of ready to reenter the working world. I came across a listing for this job and I would say it's my dream job that I never knew existed. 

Holly 

I support other parents as they are going through the same things that I went through and getting to form relationships with families from pregnancy till their children are five years old and exit. Our program is the most rewarding. 

Emily 

That sounds amazing. I'm just finishing the book upstream. Have you heard about it? No, I'm trying to think of the authors name really sitting behind me, but the book is upstream. Oh Dan, Dan Heath I think is the author and it's all about solutions that we implement upstream to prevent all the downstream problems. 

Emily 

And to me, like the ultimate upstream is like you're saying all the early childhood intervention. It's like research shows that so many downstream negative consequences could have been prevented by, like you're saying, just supporting parents with with little ones and putting in the programs in place. So I am so excited that you're sharing about this. I have never heard of it. I'm definitely gonna go do more research. 

Holly 

It's exactly what you were saying the the outcomes from home visiting have been measured there. All these federally funded studies, and they measure it's it decreases like crime and violence in the not just the parents that are served but the children as they get older. It has like a huge impact on school readiness, maternal mental health, maternal, physical health. 

Holly 

And just be investment of most home visiting programs. Give it's one or two visits. Monthly and huge impacts that really do pay off down the down the road. And like financially, two communities. For I believe it's for every dollar invested. There was a return of $7.00 I I'm not sure on the exact numbers, but it's major an it really that concept of. 

Holly 

The small change, the small tweaks that you can make in the beginning to prevent big problems later down the road. 

Emily 

That's amazing and like you were saying like, not only is it like morally the right thing to do, but like economic, yes. 

Holly 

Yeah, no completely. There's really no reason not to, which I think there's sort of finding out, and I know that, so I'm in Delaware, which is a small enough state that. 

Holly 

It's pretty easy to have a pretty wide reach with programs like this, but I think they're expanding a lot because people are figuring out that this is so good for community is. 

Emily 

And you mentioned the one thing that helps demands that you're working with be successful is like when they do have supportive healthcare providers. What are some other things that you've seen really make an impact in terms of encouraging breastfeeding? 

Holly 

So I will say one thing that has, I've been on a little bit of a soapbox lately is. 

Holly 

I know an I'm in differently parenting, Facebook groups and everything and people will say I'm getting ready to breastfeed. What do I need? And people say you need the what is it? The haka pump, which is newer than any of my children I think. 

Emily 

Well, I feel like I missed out on I. 

Holly 

Know that would have been great, especially when I had the oversupply with my first. 

Holly 

And you know, they say you must have a pump and you need this bottle because it's it. You know it's just like a nipple an you need this um breastfeeding pillow. And this breastfeeding cover an these really expensive nursing bras. And those things are great to have an I you know I loved my breastfeeding pillow. I needed a pump but things like that. 

Holly 

But it's It's such a barrier for moms who can't access that. So I really I try to tell these moms. I say all you need is a baby in a breast telling them that they you know you don't need all the expensive gadgets. You don't need all the books. Um, it's good. It's good to be prepared. It's important to be prepared, but removing all those obstacles that make them feel like they can't do it, or that it's going to be too hard or. 

Holly 

People did it without all these tools for so long, and I think that it can really be a barrier to these families when they think that there's so much that they need and there would be so much easier to just formula feed. I think. Also, Wick support is really important because WIC provide a breast feeding peer counselors they way baby they have. 

Holly 

Just the supports in place an A lot of my family is think that if they're not formula feeding they don't need WIC because they don't need to, they don't need help with formula, but I found that having that support is really important, and then I have all my all my post part of sorry all my prenatal moms. I have fill out of worksheet that just says you know when I'm having trouble with breastfeeding I will call this person. 

Holly 

You know there is sometimes a lactation consultant at the hospital or relaxation consultant at the pediatricians office. Sometimes it's their mom or their neighbor that's breastfed, sometimes they don't know anybody who has breast fed successfully. When things get hard, I think having somebody that they can count on it, it just helps to have that in place. 

Emily 

That is so great, I'm actually so I'm creating an on line course for breastfeeding too. 'cause I feel like that would be a really good resource. I was like there needs to be some sort of if this then that yeah, just like you're saying because otherwise you're you're going to be in trouble. An I even I feel like this is still one of the barriers is. 

Emily 

I know a new mom who's struggling with breastfeeding, and I say, well, I really think you should reach out to a lactation consultant, but I don't know exactly where in how they would do that, depending on which health insurance which hospital, exactly what their office hours are. If you are even capable of going anywhere right now, I'm still thinking through that one, and it sounds like. 

Emily 

This is a good solution to just figure out the logistics ahead of time and like you're saying, I I had the misconception that WIC was did not support you. If you weren't using Formula, so that's new to me, that's fantastic. 

Holly 

OK yeah they have a great breastfeeding peer counselor program in place where it's usually moms that have some breastfeeding experience an they're trained and supporting new moms and it's you know not. 

Holly 

Medically based or an IBCLC or anything, but just somebody who can sort of be like I've been there and that six week growth spurt is horrible and you'll get through it and I think they do have training to do some troubleshooting to. 

Emily 

That is so cool now that's what I've been thinking about. Is that we kind of all needed a coach during those first seconds exactly. Yeah, especially even nowadays, like if you could just text somebody or leave them a voice memo or something to like vent, what you're going through and have them kind of validate you. And maybe they have a suggestion or two, but part of it is really just kind of being validated. 

Holly 

What a great idea. I love that and so much of it is just knowing that you're not alone and struggling. It helps a lot and I one of my coworkers. Actually, I think she just had a baby yesterday, but we were talking about how she was preparing to breastfeed an, you know, telling her about the growth spurts and how hard it is, and you know, like saying like you can like I told her to call me at anytime just because I remember being on the couch at 3:00 AM. 

Holly 

Right at that six week mark, crying because I was never gonna get off the couch and I think it's important that moms know that this stuff is normal and it passes. So having that kind of support is huge. 

 

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